Big Thinking Hat Topic
  • In the history of APi there has always been one topic which gets people posting and always can get somewhat heated
  • Oh religion, one of my favourite topics ;)

    But i will give my view on it and that is that i do not believe in 'God' and really there is no reason for me not believing in 'God' because there is no reason for me to believe in 'God'

    And if you look at the conflicts that are happening around the world they all seem to be involving religion and people are prepared to kill for there religion/beliefs and that really isn't right in my opinion.

    If there was a 'God' would these terrible things be happening in the world today, i think not.

  • Well, since the floor is open for all, then I think I'll take my five minutes' worth of fame and run like the wind with it! :P

    I do fully believe in GOD. Not 'a' god, not 'gods' but, "God" our Heavenly Father, as in the trinity "God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit". I believe that Eve messed things up royally in the very beginning and that is why we're in the mess we all are in down to today. There used to be "The Law" for man to follow to 'redeem' themselves, but that was obviously not working, so God decided to give us his only Son, to be the bridge back to himself. He has made it abundantly clear (whether we 'see' it or not) that THE way back to him and to everlasting life is His Son, Jesus, who was not only perfect, but the ONLY perfect person to ever walk on this earth, or who ever will walk on this earth. He was not just a 'good man' or even a 'great man', He was God, in the flesh, come to Earth in human form via Virgin Birth, He remained totally without sin his entire stay here, no matter how sorely He was tempted. (and trust me, the devil himself came here to tempt him, he was very sorely tempted!! But, remained without sin!!) He lived and died for us all, so that all we have to do is believe in order to cross that bridge back to our Heavenly Father, where we belong. What could be easier than that!? You don't have to 'do' anything, per s
  • Well, this thread couldn
  • [quote]Originally posted by Steve F STAFF@Feb 11 2003, 09:30 AM
    [b]If there is a God and he / she / it is watching over us who is all-powerful, forgiving and omniscient
  • lol :lol:

    Good stuff Knowze!

    I must admit - i did forget about pay per view amongst the deities ;)





    (as viewers may note
  • I belive that man has during its many years on earth tried to explain things beyond their grasp with the meens of a higher being. Wheter it be a god or futuristic science doesn't matter, people will open wide, swallow and march off singing BAAH BAAH.

    The power of religon has been exploited by kings and leader for centuries, the power of religon has been helping the feeble get along with their life for centuries.
    Religon is a man made tool, much like time, to be used to describe the surrounding world making it just a bit less frigtening to wake up every day.

    Religon should really be treated much like time. I mean nobody will get upset if you live in an other timezoon or even if you have another day-rythm.
    You should be able to find your own belifes.
    But you can't.
    Freedom of religon is realy as free as freedom of climate.
    You get what you're born with basically. If you wanna change your mind you be looking forward to saying goodbye to your old friends and spending a lot of time money and effort on getting to you new location.

    Now I could go on for hours trying to produce proof that there can't possible be such a thing as gods, but I won't. I know better then that.
    First of all people beliving tend to belive, wich is fine by me. If they wasn't to belive then I might have a chanse of changing their minds but then again I wouldn't have to.

    I belive that most (mayor) religons are based upon the idea that man really are able to be good if they only tried a bit harder.
    I don't think so. Behaviors in a group of people doesn't change over night. It takes some time to adjust people and teachings until both are acceptale.

    I must admit that I am in someway a bit fascinated by the KARMA bit of some religons. Since I am (like most others) slightly to egoistic to spread my love over every one and all I feel that the belife that "you'll get what you give" is apealing to me.
    You really can't lose by being kind to people. Well, accually you can, if every body else are taking advantage of you but that's not how the world really really works. I hope.

    I think I'll continue this when I'm in a not quite so good mood as I happen to be right now.
    I will then explain why religon is smart and belivers are idiots. :)
  • Originally posted by manneman@Feb 10 2003, 09:52 PM

    I will then explain why religon is smart and belivers are idiots. :)

    Oooohhh Boy Lord Manne, I can't wait to hear that one!!!!! I've been wondering for sooooo long why I'm such an idiot!!! :P (heeheeheeee!!!)

    Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a game of "Tomb Guarder" to play!! :D Then, after that, I think I'll play "Resident Love and Peaceful"!! :lol:
  • doughting thomas thomas was one of jesuses prophets thet said parphrazing..i wont believe jesus has risen from the dead unless i can put my finger through his hand and thrust my arm in his side.then jesus came to them and said thet man will not be saved by the things he sees but by faith the things hoped for and not seen and man was no longer seperated from god becouse of jesus dying for our sins we have in all of us the holy ghost and through him we all have the chance to decide our fate its no longer the devils decision to do with us what he will but our own and if we believe and remain meek and listen to that wich is in all of us and trust in God,we will be saved.its when we use our own thinking and arigance and self rithousness,thats where all our mistakes are made.not from believing in God.when i have an enlightenment from reading the bible it is soo powerfull the knawlage he makes known to me is incomprehindable and by my life experiences and keeping God in my heart eventually i begin to understand that little bit of devine knawlage thet didnt come from me,and after i can make that bit of knawlage a part of me then i have the ability to understand and recognize the next bit of knawlage and after doing this time and time again and looking back at it and where i was and how far ive come to personaly know God is with me it is definately personal and real and everyone should... if you dont believe in God...atleast give youreself the opertunity to really spend some time reading the bible i have read it several times and i know a lot abought that book more than any book ive ever read becouse i can recal any little bit of it and always aply it to my life it is the perfect book and has no flaw so read it you owe it to youreself to know what youre talking abought right?"dont cast youre pearls among the swine"...im not done with this just resting...see ya soon hahaha
  • Gid, are we you just looking for ' beliefs ' then !?!?

    Oh, I have a few of those!! :blink:

    I believe that I should be able to eat as much as i want, as often as I want, without gaining any weight.

    I believe that I should not have to go to work every day to have money, I should just get $5,000 deposited into my checking account every Friday just because.

    I believe that, when I get in my truck to drive anywhere, everyone else should KNOW this and get the heck off the roads!!!!

    I believe that I should be able to have the perfect svelte body that I want just from playing video games, and not have to do any exercise at all.

    I believe that killing should be legal when it applies to one's ex-spouses who have cheated on you and left you for anohter woman. :lol:

    I believe ........ that I'll go eat another piece of chocolate cake!!

    Thank you all for your time! :D
  • wow that was a scary story hahaha :rolleyes:
  • Oh susan, thou shalt not kill... Not wery christian beliefs you have there, are you sure you church isn't some kind of satanic cult !?! :lol:
    Nah, just teasing you, and don't get worked up by me declaring you as an idiot, even if you weren't a beliver you still be polish right
    :P

    Oh, and playerofpawns. The Bible DO have some flaws, that's why they make an update on it every once in a while. ;)
  • Originally posted by manneman@Feb 11 2003, 06:18 PM
    The Bible DO have some flaws, that's why they make an update on it every once in a while. ;)

    Forgive my terrible sarcasm manneman...but
    If bibles were to have flaws then every verse wouldn't match. Well you flip through every single version of it and you'll find the same thing said in different contexes. Basically what I'm saying is if they "updated" it, then wouldn't you think that it would have "less" or "more"? Yet, oh wow look...the verses are exactly the same! What a coincidence. :o

    As far as God watching over us, while other believe that he is falling...I believe more than ever right now that he is strengthening our faith and the fact that we shouldn't worry. Something I've learned this past year was not to worry. God will take care of everyone. He knows the suffering and everything that is happening in the world right now and he knows the outcome of what will happen to both parties. All I can say thus far is right here. I will add more later...I have some schoolwork that needs attention.
  • [quote]Originally posted by Steve F STAFF@Feb 10 2003, 05:55 PM
    [b] and everybody thinks, don
  • I hope I don't get "cooled" for this, but I'm responding before reading the previous posts. I don't want to be influenced before replying.

    Since the dawn of man, anything unexplainable has been attributed to the gods. When in reality a simple eclipse is something which simply wasn't understood at the time. I do believe that there is something we don't understand (the soul or spirit) which makes all of us think, behave, and feel individually. I just am not sure that there is one or numerous entities that give that to us. I like to think that life in general has an aura or power all it's own which keeps individuals individuals. From the personalities my pets have to every human being on the earth. To surrender who I am to a higher power would make me nothing short of a player in a play, or a mere puppet. I can't buy that.

    I'm convinced that when I take the dirt nap, my physical body will become simply worm fodder. That's the way of things. But if I'm wrong, then I guess there will be repercussions. I'm not there to prove it right or wrong yet.
  • Naught to worry jdm, you certainly will not get cooled for sharing your opinions, that's what this thread is all about and your thoughts on this matter will be respected just as much as anyone elses. (except of course if they don't agree with mine! :P ) JUST KIDDING!!!

    You can share your thoughts and opinions here, and ask questions about others' opinions, but if you suddenly start calling someone a stupid retard or implying that someone who believes is an idiot (;) ) then that is flaming and can get you into trouble!! (heh heh heh, love to get Manne on his toes and offa mine!!) This is not about name calling and finger pointing, only about sharing, which you have done admirably, and learning.
    We all have a little room to learn a little sumpin'-sumpin', yes? :D
  • I am not a believer a "religions" sorry those are rules set by men. I am also not a believer in a god per se but there is too much structure in the universe not to believe in a higher power, who or what that is, I don't know.

    My belief is in morality and virtue (I should have been a knigt born long ago lol). If you know something is wrong whether society or your gut tells you it is then don't do it. Now with that said I do believe there is nothing wrong with the fantasy of doing those things. I.E. I would never pull a man out of a car run over an old lady to go rob the local jewelry store but damn I love it when I can in GTA: vice city :)

    Well thats it for me. Thanks for listening.

    Wartoad
  • I do belive there is a GOD somewhere looking down at us. It has been proven to us (as a people) time in and time again. If this statement is not true then how do you explain the stories of Hercules and Jesus?

    Now I know that all or most of you will be replying that Hercules was just myth but don't you think that the two stories are extremely similar? Hercules was bron from a human mother and Zeus (the God of all gods) but so was Jesus.
    Hercules had to prefom 12 tasks that were (at the time) unthinkable, Jesus had 12 deciples and he preformed miracles that were unthinkable.
    Hercules died at the age of 32 and so did Jesus.

    But getting back to the subject matter...our Lord told us (the human race) that He has given us (the people) the tools and knowlegde to help overcome evil, and when the time is right God will send forward our Lord Jesus Christ back to the earth and judge us for the final judgement.

    Another point that I would like make is that you don't have to look very far and hard to find them (God and Jesus) Jesus told his deciples (sp?) before his crusiffiction (sp?) that I am in every man, woman, and creature all you have to do is look into your heart and you'll find me and your Father.

    For those scientists who don't believe in God I have one question:
    You don't believe in Him because you can't see, hear, touch, or smell Him, but you believe in atoms which you also cannot see, hear, touch, or smell them. Why do you believe in something so small that obiviously is there but you don't believe in something that may have put us on this planet?
  • The sweep electron microscopes has made it possible for us to accually see atoms. the picuters aren't wery sharp but you can see how the little dots are alined, just as predicted.
    And that's pretty much the thing of not beliving in a higher being, there is nothing that indicates a precence.
    Some one once tried to explain the precence of god by explaining what small the odds were that life would occur on any give planet.
    Seing that there is an infinit amount of planets kinda ruined that explanation.
    I'm sure there are hundreds and hundreds of good "proof" that god is out there somewere, but there are probably as many proofs pointing at the holocaust didn't occur.
    Now I don't mind people putting their trust in wheater it be a god or their money or the fact that someday soon they will win the lottery.
    I do mind that people have an urge to impose their belives onto others.
    But that goes along the whole line of behaviors (when was the last time you saw a CEO with a mohawk?) so I guess it really doesn't fit in here.


    Now SUS the moment you been waiting for.
    Belief is good cus it keeps people from doing worse things than they're doing.
    Belivers are idiots cus they tend to be human and in groups. Any time humans get togather to form a group they turn into idiots. Have you ever sat alone in a diner and listened in on people talking in groups. I usually can't belive how retarded you get once you have others to share a thought with. I get extra stupid cus I genarally have to be the center of the discussion
    :lol:

    Here's your chance at me then, I'm gonna be truthfull enough to confess this.
    I totally belive in the printed word
    If someone has a crazy idea and writes it down on paper makes a book of it and illustrate it with trustworthy graphics I will take it as the truth. that I will and I'm not proud of saying so.
  • Originally posted by WreckinBall@Feb 12 2003, 05:34 PM
    God knows

    Yes?....

    ...Oh, sorry WB, I thought you were talking to me :D
  • First and foremost... I do not believe in God. I don't believe in any higher being.

    Yes I did get married in a church, why? Why would I get married in a church when I don't believe in God? Out of respect for my wife, parents, in-laws and friends and the rest of the family. I suppose I could put up with a half an hour of God to please all of them. Besides the wedding isn't the important part for me... everything after is. (No, not just the reception Steve :P , everything after)

    I science has always made more sense to me. The Big Bang theory is what I believe. I have not seen sufficient proof to believe in God. How could God let an innocent child get raped at five years old? How could God let that person who raped that five year old walk freely across the Earth?
  • A while back, before my long absence from this site, we had this same topic come up. Back then, (musta been what? 6 months ago?) I was adimantly against the thought of any form of higher power what-so-ever. I had never been introduced to any form of religion, and had never really learned anything about God. However, my parents started going to this new church, and they had never accepted God either, but soon after they started going there, they did accept. It took me along time to realize what had happened too them, I know it sounds stupid, but they had changed, not just their views on life, but their lives in general, things they should have had no control over, started to go better for them. Finally, one night, they sat me down, and talked to me about the saving grace of Jesus Christ. I accepted that night, and have never looked back, though I have stumbled, since. I do not believe in any particular religion, I believe that what man touches, man corrupts, to a certain degree. I think that religion can be a good thing, but when it is run by a man, a priest ect. it becomes a bad thing. The only thing I believe right now, is in God, and in his word, the Bible. I agree almost completely with Susan B's first post. It's not what you do, how you do it, or how much you give, it's your belief in God that will save you. As to the whole war thing that is going on, I don't think God does anything without a reason. He knows the eventual outcome of everything, so He lets it go as it is, to see which of His children will return to Him, before He makes His triumphant return.

    I'll prolly be back with more later, but for now,

    Later all,
    Darkraider

  • Dark Raider,

    What a difference a day makes, eh!? :D
    I personally am very thankful that your parents have the courage and the love for you to share Him with you!! It doesn't sound stupid to me at all to, that they are different now. It's amazing what He can do!! You will now see some doors open for you that you weren't even aware existed before!!

    I agree with you that I too don't believe in any 'religion' per s
  • Well, it's not so much that I disagree with you Sus, it's just that I see things a little bit differently about that 4 year old being hit by a truck kinda thing, ect. I believe that under a certain age(and it's not a set thing, it's different for diff. ppl, depending on their maturety) they are not accountable for their belief/disbelief. If a 4 year old child dies, he/she is almost certainly not mature enough to make a life altering choice like believing in God or not, so they are not held accountable. I think my age of accountablility was around 12, and I didn't accept God until about age 14, so I was living 2 years of my life when I would have gone to hell, had I died right then. So, I think that was on the only thing that I someone differed on, just a lil.

    God bless you too,

    Later,
    Darkraider
  • Originally posted by Darkraider@Feb 14 2003, 04:36 PM
    I believe that under a certain age(and it's not a set thing, it's different for diff. ppl, depending on their maturety) they are not accountable for their belief/disbelief. If a 4 year old child dies, he/she is almost certainly not mature enough to make a life altering choice like believing in God or not, so they are not held accountable.


    Well, I whole-heartedly agree with you there Dark Raider, it's just that I didn't express myself as clearly as you do!! Sorry about that 'blonde moment'! :D

    Now, I think we've taken over enough of the thread here for the moment! Let's let others have their turns too! ^_^
  • Let me just say that I really enjoyed reding your post Darkrider.
    It was almost like some sort of happy end movie.
    oh sh*t, that sounds like I'm making fun of you, dosn't it. Well I aint.
  • I'll vouch for the fact that you can take him at his word Dark Raider, if he says he ain't, he ain't!! :D
    (he's just a bit dorky, but he can't help that!!) :lol:

  • I wouldn't say that there's an age limit to when you should be held accountable but rather it is dependant on one's maturity level. Some people know right from wrong at an early age and when you're able to tell the difference and know when you should and shouldn't be doing certain things then you should be held accountable. This is why you see some minors charged as adults for certain crimes, because it has been deemed that they can determine between right and wrong and know what they did was wrong. For those of you who don't know, i am a christian and have been so for 5 years. Before that time i always looked at christianity as religion(they're not the same thing) and felt it was being forced upon me. Once i figured things out for myself though things have improved 300 fold. Sure i have my problems, but no one is without flaws or nuances. Well, i hope that you all enjoy posting and have fun gaming.
  • A small child gets hit and killed by a drunk driver.

    God moves in mysterious ways

    A small child gets abducted, gang raped, urinated on and set on fire

    God moves in mysterious ways.

    Hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people suffer every day

    God moves in mysterious ways.

    Criminals are given more rights than their victims

    God moves in mysterious ways.

    All the people screwing up the world live opulent lifestyles and never have to answer for their crimes

    God moves in mysterious ways.


    If God did create the earth in only 7 days that
  • Wow Gid, never thought this day would ever come but for the most part i would have to say that i agree with you. Life on Earth will never get better and who's to blame? Many people blame God for all the misbringings while praising themselves whenever good happens. It doesn't work that way. Everyone has a choice for every second that they're alive and what they choose will determine what choices they will have the next second. Most people choose the easy way and most of the time that is the way to death and decay. So basically the world is like it is because of choices that you, me, and everyone as a whole has made. Well, i hope that you all enjoy posting and have fun gaming.

  • Too true, we were created with the will to choose between right and wrong, and true again, Eve is the one who messed things up from the very beginning, and too many of us are using that 'will to choose' for some very wrong choices.

    However ........

    A small child gets hit and killed by a drunk driver.

    God moves in mysterious ways

    A small child gets abducted, gang raped, urinated on and set on fire

    God moves in mysterious ways.

    Hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people suffer every day

    God moves in mysterious ways.

    Criminals are given more rights than their victims

    God moves in mysterious ways.

    All the people screwing up the world live opulent lifestyles and never have to answer for their crimes

    God moves in mysterious ways.[/b]



    Not everyone thinks that stupidly!! Those are a matter of those above mentioned people using their right to make choices to make BAD choices. That much should be obviously clear.

    We were not neccesarily given the free will "so that we dictated the social (or anti-social) world we live in."
    Mostly, we were given the free will to choose, so that when we choose HIM, it is true. Like, when we choose our spouse, they know we truly love them 'cause we weren't forced to be with them, we chose them.

    Jesus did more than attempt to teach us the errors of our ways. That was one part, however, and though it didn't work for all, it worked for many. And, though 'we' killed him, that's ok because that was the plan anyhow. That was all part of God's plan, for Jesus to be able to be the bridge back to Him. God so loves this world that He gave his only begotten son for us.

    For those who commit crimes and don't go unpunished on this world (no matter how much I think they should be), it's enough for me to know that they will pay for their crimes/sins in the after life. The after life is forever, this life is but a drop in the bucket comparatively. One zap now, or an eternity of zaps later!? Hmmmmm..... <_< <br />
    Jesus was more than a mere consultant, He is God. He is the bridge, the way back to where we were originally meant to be in the first place.

    For those who do not have God in their lives, yes, you're on your own. But you don't have to be. Many of us (me included) don't get His voicemail, we get results!! They may not always be what I think it should be, but it ALWAYS turns out better than I could have ever hoped for whenI let him have it His way. That means, of course, that I exercise my will to choose, to choose to let Him have His way!


    He moves alright, all the time all over the place. He moved in Dark Raiders life, by getting his family in the right place at the right time, and preparing their hearts for Him, and then to get DR in the right 'place' so that his heart was ready to recieve Him also.

    It's amazing what God can do, if you let Him!!

    (these opinions are not neccesarily the opinions of the sponsor here, just mine! :D )
  • Well, here I go again, hope your not getting tired of me yet. Oh, and by the way, great topic, havn't seen such a lively discussion for a while.

    Gid, I think that the reason God gave us free will on this earth is to see which of our hearts would seek Him out willingling. Not begrudingly, because He forced us too, that's not the way he wants us. And those of us that seek Him out, well, I know in heaven our reward will be great. I just see this earth as the proving grounds for our souls.

    "But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur." (Revelation 19:20) This verse is discribing what will happen when Jesus Christ makes His triumphant return, after a time known as the great tribulation. This is the time that the world is heading to all the time. There is no stopping it, God allready has it planned, so I'm not really surprised that things are going as crappy as they are now.

    Well, for me it's getting late, considering I need to get up early in the morning.
    I have more I want to add to this, so I'll edit it later.

    Cya,
    Darkraider

    P.S.
    Imagine, all this stuff coming from a person who, just over a year ago, would have been the first to deny any form of God.
  • I'm sorry but I have to blurrb something else here...Remember that 'we' are not only dealing with GOD and Jesus but 'we' also have to deal with GOD's other son/alter ego (whatever you will) Lucifer, Satan, Diablo (well you get the picture) so wherever you have the good you also have the bad. The decision that you make will brought back during the final judgement.

    Satan's ultimate trick was to make man belive that He doesn't exist.

    Gid have you picked up the Bible and read it? If you have did you understand the message?

    P.S. I have said this in another post somewhere but I'll say it again. My late grandmother used to have a saying it was:
    Anything and everyhting that you do in this life you'll have to pay for in the end. As for the drunk drivers, rapists, criminals, and screwed up poeple out there well they will pay for it here one way or another and in the after life.
  • Originally posted by Kaver@Feb 15 2003, 10:58 PM
    Remember that 'we' are not only dealing with GOD and Jesus but 'we' also have to deal with GOD's other son/alter ego (whatever you will) Lucifer, Satan, Diablo

    [quote]Gid have you picked up the Bible and read it? If you have did you understand the message?

    [/b][/quote]
    I have but one question for you Kaver, What Bible have you been reading that puts Lucifer as God's "other" son or an alter ego? He is a fallen angel that used to be in charge of all music in heaven but he felt that he could be like God and it didn't work out so well for him. So, just to let you know, you may want to read that again and let us know what you "think" of that then.
  • Wow I come back and Mi amigo Gid has posted one of my fav kinda topics, I have a history with these kinda threads lol ;)


    First lets get the contreversy outta the road, I am completely and whole heartedly against any form of organized religion, to me it is nothing more that a manner in which to bilke money from people at a moment of weakness. Yes I said weakness because when you are placing you faith in something you can not see, hear or feel (tangible) and are being guided by someone who proclaims to be passing to you the "holy word" you have experienced "suspension of disbelief".

    My "religion" comes from within, I believe in the good I can do and that others can do. I have faith in myself and faith in people who prove worthy enough for me to place faith in. Good and evil are not determined by a "higher power" but by the actions and choices of us animals who we have named "human".

    Now for the discalimer lol, I have nothing agianst people who believe, at least they are making the attempt to better themselves and others. I know many people who are religious and they have been nothing but good to me. I don't judge a person on there beliefs but in how they practice them and their conviction in those beliefs.

    You have to stand for something or you will fall for anything. :D
  • I would like to talk a bit about this bad reputation that mr Satan has seem to have.
    I saw a tv show about satanist, and they were not the teenage-tombstone tipping-eat raw meat kinda satanist.
    They said that satan is in fact a better role model since he is closer to the human nature.
    All he's ever done is deny God and for that he is evil.

    Think about it as if God and Satan were best friends that had an argument and started bad mouthing each other. God had more other friends and spread rumors about Satan so that soon enough every body hated him.
    But if you think about it, that Satan guy isn't that bad of guy.
    He doesn't want you to do nothing or follow any laws and stuff.
    He accepts you just the way you are, with all the flaws and shortcommings. That's rather kind of him I think.
    If you look upon the situation from a non religous POV it would seem that God is just a bully and satan is the only one brave enough to stand up to him, and for that he was excluded from the cool gang of God.

    I don't belive in the presance of any satan nor god but I think it's rather thrilling to think about things from an other point of view.
    ;)
  • Manneman, that's an interesting point of view, but not one that I entirely agree with. Most of the world seem to have agreed that God is good and Satan is bad, which I agree with myself, still...

    My own belief is that there is no God, but you should have more confidence in yourself in believe in yourself. Many people turn to God win times of trouble, but other people do the same when not.

    You are free to believe in what you like, as long as it feels right for you, or how you see fit, but in the past many people have died for the sake of religion - did they all die in vain?

    There are many arguments for and against God, but if you want to be sure, lok at it as a gamble, as Blase Pascal did. He said that you should believe in god, as you will have gained everything if you are right, but if you believe in nothing, then even if you are right, you will gain nothing.

    Despite the above, I will not believe in God, as there has never been one solid undoubtable proof that he/she/it does exist.
  • But doesn't god love all his children?
    As it seems to me you can belive or not, doesn't matter.
    If you are a good man you will get the privalige to chose you living quarters after you die. If you're bad you are forced to live in hell.

    But then many folks say that all you have to do is belive in it(god that is). Does that mean that no matter what you have done you will end up in heaven as long as you don't reject God?
  • Uh, yeah Gid, I'll answer to that, however, keep in mind, this is only my own view of things.

    Lucifer, as it is put in the Bible, was the most beutiful of the created angels. Ultimately it was this that led him to his fall. He became prideful, because he was so beautiful and he started to think he was more beautiful, better, than God. He chalenged God, saying that he was the more beautiful one, the more fit to reign over heaven, and that he should be above God. Well, this caused God to send him into "hell" for creating this uprising. You see, the fault was not in the fact that heaven is not perfect, it was Lucifer at fault for thinking that he WAS perfect, and should be ruleing heaven, not just living in it.

    Agree, or disagree as you will, but this is the way I see it, hope it helped, and if not, hope it atleast provides a good point for discussion.

    Later all,
    Darkraider

  • The misery and suffering that is connected to Satan on Earth here is because Satan is the 'ruler' of this Earth. Jesus is the "Prince of Peace" but God gave dominion over this earth to the devil, to 'make things even' as it were. Make an even playing ground, give us all the will go choose, and those of us who choose God are truly HIS.

    For those of us who are Believers, (not 'good') who end up in Heaven, it WILL be perfect, because Satan DOES NOT, HAS NOT EVER, NOR WILL EVER have any power over Heaven. His domain is here on earth, but that is only temporary. I'm tellin' ya, as a couple others have said, take a peek in your Bible, esp. in Revelations, and you'll see a few things that will probably answer some of your questions Gid.

    Manne, YES, God loves all of us, and doesn't want for ANY of us to end up apart from him, just as any of us would never want for our children to be apart from us in heart, to choose to deny us and never have anything to do with us, to even deny our very existance!!! :( Wouldn't that break your heart, Manne if your little one grew up to say "You're not my Dad, go away, I want nothing to do with you!!!!! You have NOTHING to do with me, what I am, how I think, or how I turned out!!!" Well, that's how God feels with all of those down here who say the same thing. He continues to give all opportunities for us to 'see', because He loves us so much. But, in the end it's OUR CHOICES that we make that determine our joy or misery.
    It is our BELIEF in Christ, God's only begotten Son, who lived and died on that cross. Returned on the third day and acended into Heaven at the right hand of the Father...... it is THAT BELIEF that is the bridge back to God, where we belong. That's why it is so hard for so many to believe... because it's that simple!! Nothing that simple can be correct, right!?!? WRONG!

    Oh, one last thought: As for it being a weakness to put your faith in something you cannot see or feel. Let me ask you something Devilchild: If I were to say to you that, if you moved here, I'd set you up with a life that you could not get any better anywhere else, would you belive it? Probably not, it would be HARD to believe it without seeing proof, right!? It would take some serious STRENGTH inside you to go along with it, when every fibre of your being, and all of those around you are fighting against it. That is strength in Faith. It's easy to trust what you can see and touch, it is SO MUCH HARDER to put your faith in something you cannot prove or see or touch.

    Just food for though! B)
  • Originally posted by Susan B STAFF@Feb 16 2003, 04:47 PM
    Satan DOES NOT, HAS NOT EVER, NOR WILL EVER have any power over Heaven. His domain is here on earth, but that is only temporary.

    If I believed in Satan I would say that this is without a doubt... correct. Looking through the newspaper anyday of the week would show you this. Rape, murder, theft, assaults... the list goes on and on.

    I don't understand why God who is suppose to love all his children would let this happen.
  • Simple Rex. For example: If you knew that your child will burn her fingers by touching the stove, and you tell her time and time again that the heat will burn her, but her curiosity is just not to be defeated by mere words, you may eventually let her see for herself. Allow her to briefly touch that red-hot burner and see that you were right, to do what you told her not to do will get her nothing but pain. Same principle but on a MUCH grander scale.

  • Susan i don't think that's the same thing, even at a larger scale. You are talking about self inflicted pain or suffering, and Rex is talking about pain inflicted or commited against others.
    If your kid was about to hurt someone, you will stop him, you wouldn't wait until he "learns" that it's wrong, because someone else's integrity was at risk. I think that Rex is reffering to that situation.

    I don't belive in "God", and i don't know why, if he has the power, dosen't stop crime, poverty, suffering, etc. I've never tried to answer those question because i don't belive in God, but if i did belive in God, I would try to find the answer to those questions.

    I do believe in a "higher" power, but i'm afraid my english is not that good to try and explain it.
    But i do know "IT" can't change or stop particular things but "IT" can change things at a larger scale, such as an entire aspect of the human behavior.
  • It's true, God does love everyone and though many of you dislike it, this includes all sinners as well. But living on Earth isn't supposed to be a priveledge and i am reminded of a saying i heard:

    Earth is the only hell a Christian will ever know while at the same time it's the only heaven a sinner will ever know.

    Basically, God created us out of his image in hopes that we would wish to love him and fellowship with him. We weren't created to have a nice and easy life but rather to have a chance to make our own decisions and have the choice of righteousness.

    It's true, God has the power to fix everything, but he has given us free will and this is what we've created, not him. Your soul is there for eternity, your body only lives a lifetime; What becomes of you after your body dies? God promises you all his glory and more if you just accept that he's God and live your life for him.

    Everyone will live through pain, joy, evil, and good because that is your life. How you choose to live your eternity is your choice. You can live in a place that is perfect and is what you have always dreamed of or you can live where the AC is always just broken and the local fix-it guy is out sick.

    So, why does God "let" his children die? They're not dieing but rather graduating to their next life that they have decided. Whether they have chosen heaven or hell, it was their choice. God is saddened that some people don't choose to live with him for eternity but he has given everyone the choice.

    Well, i hope that you all enjoy posting and have fun gaming.
  • Well, I must first say, bravo mad, and Sus, that was beautifully put. Now I'd like to add a little sumtin.

    Everyone keeps coming back to the point, why does God let all this bad stuff happen, when He has the power to fix it? Well, if God stopped all suffering, crime, poverty, ect, ect, what reason would we have to seek out Him, or strive to get to heaven? We'd be in a place that we deemed "perfect" and thus would have no reason to try and get to a place that we'd say is equal, even if we were wrong in that assumption. So, in the long run, making a perfect world like that, might ultimatly turn more people away from Him.



    Later all,
    Darkraider

  • Very good point there Mr. Raider!!

    May I also say that, those people who do commit these horrible attrocities (?sp?) are not only hurting the victims and their loved ones, though no one ever stops to think about that. Those who choose to live such black and ugly lives are also chosing to hurt themselves, eternally. Those are times that we should/could take the opportunity to look and think "ya know, if he/she only had God in his/her life the way it was meant to be, that would not have happened! If we all had God in our lives the way it was meant to be, think of all the pain that could be prevented!!"

    Granted, I already know that not 'all' of us humans here on earth are gonna end up in Heaven, but I have no idea who all of those who won't are, nor does any other believer. We do not mean to 'shove anything down anyones throat', but we are supposed to share the gospel with anyone who will listen, 'cause we never know if we are planting a seed, so to speak. We may not see the entire thing to its fruition, but to have the opportunity to share, and to then choose not to, is to have the possible opportunity to let God use us to save a life, and choose not to. If I have an opportunity to share The Lord with someone, then I will, 'cause I may never know how it turns out, but that's ok, 'cause I don't have to know. He knows, and He will also know that I CHOSE to do the right thing by sharing when I was prompted to.

    Pablovi, I understand that my analogy was not quite as clear as I would have liked, I'll think on this to try to figure out how to make it clearer. However, I can tell you that GOD is able to change/prevent ANYTHING, big or small scale. He was the one who put Hubby and me together, and He can and will cause some HUGE changes in this world one day. I'm not sure if it's gonna be in my lifetime or not, but if it is in our lifetime, then unfortunately you'll see what I mean. :( There will be some HUGE happenings on this planet, and I am just thankful that I won't be here to witness them firsthand.
  • Originally posted by Susan B STAFF@Feb 16 2003, 10:47 PM

    Manne, YES, God loves all of us, and doesn't want for ANY of us to end up apart from him, just as any of us would never want for our children to be apart from us in heart, to choose to deny us and never have anything to do with us, to even deny our very existance!!! :( Wouldn't that break your heart, Manne if your little one grew up to say "You're not my Dad, go away, I want nothing to do with you!!!!! You have NOTHING to do with me, what I am, how I think, or how I turned out!!!"

    Of course I would.
    I would also realize that I've been neglection or misstreating my children.
    I would make every effort to make them love and trust me again.

    Now, does you God treat me that way?
  • Originally posted by Susan B STAFF@Feb 17 2003, 01:50 AM

    Very good point there Mr. Raider!!

    May I also say that, those people who do commit these horrible attrocities (?sp?) are not only hurting the victims and their loved ones, though no one ever stops to think about that. Those who choose to live such black and ugly lives are also chosing to hurt themselves, eternally. Those are times that we should/could take the opportunity to look and think "ya know, if he/she only had God in his/her life the way it was meant to be, that would not have happened! If we all had God in our lives the way it was meant to be, think of all the pain that could be prevented!!"


    Pablovi, I understand that my analogy was not quite as clear as I would have liked, I'll think on this to try to figure out how to make it clearer. However, I can tell you that GOD is able to change/prevent ANYTHING, big or small scale. He was the one who put Hubby and me together, and He can and will cause some HUGE changes in this world one day. I'm not sure if it's gonna be in my lifetime or not, but if it is in our lifetime, then unfortunately you'll see what I mean. :( There will be some HUGE happenings on this planet, and I am just thankful that I won't be here to witness them firsthand.

    I don't have God in my life Susan, and i've never commited a crime or a horrible act that may hurt someone, neither i have stolen, and i only cheat in some games ;) So as you see you don't need God to be good person, you just need to be one because you belive in being, not because you are going to end up in Hell. If that helps you, then, by all means believe in God, but many people that believe in God commits crimes and such, and many people who dosen't believe in God dosen't commit crimes.
    So if it helps you Believe in God do it. But i still don't believe in "acting" good becuase if you don't you are going to be punished(going to hell). You should "Be" good because you "want to "Be" good.
    I mean i don't steal because i will end up in jail, i don't steal because i know it's wrong.

    Susan i hope that God or something else will change the way people act, and bring some love to this place. i really do. But we can do something in advanced. Please don't hate anyone and please say no to war.

    Peace
  • Thou shalt not kill.

    According to that statement the only people who aren't going to hell are Budist, but they're going to hell
    anyway because they have a different belief.

    What's that I hear you say? "I've never killed anyone". So you've never sprayed ants because they
    simply make the place look untidy or smashed a harmless spider because it was there. IMO, if you don't
    intend to eat the animal you're about to slaughter, you'll be going to whatever hell you believe in.

    You evil, evil person. :P
  • Originally posted by madhtr@Feb 16 2003, 01:38 AM
    [b]I have but one question for you Kaver, What Bible have you been reading that puts Lucifer as God's "other" son or an alter ego? He is a fallen angel that used to be in charge of all music in heaven but he felt that he could be like God and it didn't work out so well for him. So, just to let you know, you may want to read that again and let us know what you "think" of that then. [/b]

    To tell you the truth I really haven't read the whole Bible just some parts and the Bilbe that I follow is the Orthodox one. It's there somewhere not sure where. Oh and the part about Lucifer being GOD's alter ego is just a theory that I saw on the Discovery channel when they had a special on the Devil. So that one may or may not be true but just a theory.
  • [quote]Originally posted by Darkraider@Feb 16 2003, 06:35 PM
    [b]Lucifer, as it is put in the Bible, was the most beutiful of the created angels.
  • Well, that part of my post wasn't needed anymore, mad said it in better words than I could.


    For the part with the angels being cast down with the devil. Yes, there were other angels cast down with Satan. Even in heaven he was a deciver, just as he is now. He convinced people that God wasn't as great as he (Satan) was. He's still doing that to this day.

    You say everybody wants to go to heaven, but no one wants to die. Well, frankly, I don't care if I died right this very moment. It wouldn't matter to me one bit, cause I know where I'm going, but, I'm not just gonna go out and take my own life, to get to heaven, cause maybe I'm not supposed to die yet. Maybe God has some other use for me on earth.

    Then at last, you asked, where the line was drawn for acceptance into heaven. Well, I don't think God draws a line. No sin, in His eyes is greater or less than any other, accept for the sin of not believing in Him or His Son, because if you don't believe, how can He forgive you? So, yes, if Hitler was truely repentant, and acceptated Jesus Christ, even if it was on his dead bed, God would forgive him, and welcome him. Some how though, I don't see that happening in Hitler's case. But other wise, yes, God will accept anyone, as long as you can accept Him first. And if your wondering about all those "bad" people being in heaven, well, they wouldn't be bad anymore, be cause they had seen the glory of God.


    Well, for now atleast, this is the best I can explain it, just woke up and it's a lil hard to think.
    Maybe Sus, can explain a lil better.

    Later all,
    Darkraider
  • Just because things are perfect doesn't make everyone 100% content. Being discontented can come from alot of things in this case it was because Lucifer had pride and thought he was better than everyone else. Nowhere in the bible does it say that you won't still have free will in heaven. You always have a choice and Lucifer made his choice to try and overthrow God and it didn't workout so well for him.
  • [quote]Originally posted by Steve F STAFF@Feb 17 2003, 07:35 AM
    [b]


    A lot of people have crappy lives and so need to believe there is something
  • Religion and God eh?

    Well, as Steve pointed out, my reply is MY opinion and mine alone
  • So, yes, if Hitler was truely repentant, and acceptated Jesus Christ, even if it was on his dead bed, God would forgive him, and welcome him.[/b]


    OK

    Just because things are perfect doesn't make everyone 100% content. Being discontented can come from alot of things in this case it was because Lucifer had pride and thought he was better than everyone else. Nowhere in the bible does it say that you won't still have free will in heaven. You always have a choice and Lucifer made his choice to try and overthrow God and it didn't workout so well for him. [/b]


    So in that case heaven still contains a$$holes who try and screw things up for everybody else.

  • Gosh, let's see..... where to begin?

    Lu, as for your question, I'll give you a simple, non-attitudinal (;) ) answer: I HAVE NO IDEA heh heh heh..... could not be any simpler than that, eh? As you have pointed out (very adroitly), there is a big difference between 'faith' and religion. IMHO, there is also a big difference between 'faith' and 'proof'. Faith includes belief without proof. Therefore, many of us are able to have this 'faith' without needing to know where He came from, we figure we'll find out when we get there and that is good enough for us. May seem over-simplified, but that is just the way I see it.

    Gid, many verses from the Bible are able to fit just about anyone's convenience, when they are taken alone or in bits and parts. But, that one verse was not written alone. There is much more that goes along with it. It all began as an angel came to the writer and showed him a 'vision'. There were many things in this vision. One of the things that is 'shown' in this vision comes next after the verse that you quoted. It is:
    And I heard a loud voice saying in Heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ, for the accuser of our Brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb (the Lamb being Christ, and the blood mentioned is the blood that was shed upon His death on the Cross), and by the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto the death.
    Therefor rejoice ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea, for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."...................

    There is obviously lots more, but I'm sure you get my point. Any verse can look like anything that anyone wants when it's given in convenient parts. But the scripture is not written to be 'taken' in convenient parts. Either the whole of it is to be taken, or not at all. It is a choice between whole truth, or none at all, there is no in between, partial truths and fence riding with God.

    Oh, and Lu, I totally agree that there are toooooo many out there who just want to put ALL responsibility of everything on God, and that is just a cop out. We must all take responsibility for our actions, and the fact that we have the WILL to make choices and that we DO make them, whether we like that truth or not.

    Amen. :D

  • Yeah, I hear ya man, there are too many people who quote the Bible only to their own convenience. I have a little tidbit for ya! Non-Believers are not the only ones who do that!! I've heard too many Christians who love to stand on James 4:7...... "......Resist the devil and he shall flee".. They love to forget the first part "" Submit yourselves, therefore, to God." See, that part of it puts the responsibility on OUR shoulders, makes us WORK, and lots of ppl just don't want to have to do that work!! Ya can't just take bits and parts of the whole to try to make it work for you, it doesn't work that way!! (it's like the dumb Pollack who decides to take the car door with him on his jaunt through the desert, 'cause if it gets too hot, he'll just roll the window down' !!) :lol:

    Let's see...... why all the violence to all who opposed?
    Well, it's not as though they weren't given a chance. He is loving, but He is also just. He'll give ya a chance to get it right, in fact, He will give ya lots of chances...... He got those captives out of Egypt after all, and though they did nothing but gripe and grumble the whole time, He gave them 40 years to see that all they had to do was to have the proper attitude of thanksgiving to God for getting them the heck outta there, but NOOOOOOOO, they couldn't do that!! All they could focus on was themselves and what they didn't have, and not on what they did have, ie:FREEDOM!! He promised to feed them and give them water every day, and He did it, but no, they had to grumble that it wasn't what they wanted. Geeeeeez, what'dya want, blood!?!? Well, He gave us that too! ;) (of course, that was years later) But ya know, some just aren't satisfied with that either. At some point, we just need a good smack upside the head to try to wake us up. Some need more than one, and some need bigger ones.

    Someone said in here (I think it was Mad) that some people just are not satisfied with anything, and that is just simply true. As the great Mr. Hetfield says, "Sad but truuuuuuue ". :P
  • I am sorry to break up this but it struck me that this (as usual) has turned into a trial of the christians, in wich susan is making a great defence BTW.

    How about we "nonbelivers" state what we got instead of religion?
    Or rather what is your religion.

    Is it TV? Is it the many informative sites of the internet? Is it your big brother?

    What in the world do you trust and love an chearish as your golden calf?

    What do you belive in?

  • Psssssst, Manne, just a little point to note:
    I don't have 'religion', I have God. :P

    Oh, and please don't break it up now, just when it's getting fun!!
    :lol: :blink:
  • What have I got that I believe in?

    What do I have faith in?

    What doctrines do I follow?

    What beliefs gives me strength?


    That
  • Originally posted by Steve F STAFF@Feb 18 2003, 12:03 PM
    I follow whatever doctrines I choose to and these are subject to change at any given point.

    My doctrines include thou shalt own and make use of a PS2 for gaming enjoyment.

    The first part goes for pretty much everyone(other than those who their life is forced on them).

    Looks like i've broke that one Gid. Sold my PS2 just the other week preparing for my move.

    I am with Suze on this one, it's not the religion that i'm tied to but rather God.
  • [quote]Originally posted by Steve
    [b]For me religion is something designed for those who are too weak to believe in themselves
  • Gid, was just reading your last post and your entire post goes for pretty much everyone out there. God isn't there to run anyone's life though nor does he force you to do anything against your will(as some religions do). Everyone screws up and it's no one's fault but your own. Yes, sometimes God works in mysterious ways but everyone's life is their life and it's all based on decisions made throughout. Those that do blame God for their screw ups and praise themselves when good happens aren't following God and if they think they are then they're joking themselves.


    Manne:

    God created the Earth, the heavens, and all that is for his creations to reside. He created us for the sole purpose of having someone to fellowship with(hey, everyone gets lonely). He won't force fellowship on us though as it's just not his way(basically he's not pushy) but he'll bring peace to those who want his fellowship(yes, as easy as that).


    For the record, in case some don't know, I don't have a religion but rather i have God. Well, i hope that you all enjoy posting and have fun gaming.
  • I believe that people who place their faith in something completely unprovable aren
  • Originally posted by Steve F STAFF@Mar 3 2003, 05:59 PM
    At least by believing in myself and that I am responsible for my own life, I am believing in something that can been proven and I know to exist.

    If you think about it then how exactly do you know that you don't just exist in someone's mind? This brings to mind the anime Evangelion which(though the answer is upto one's perception) is basically a daydream of some Japanese kid. Or maybe the world is like in Men in Black where a bunch of aliens are playin marbles with the different universes.

    Needless to say, life as you think you know it can't be totally 100% proved. You may be able to prove that you exist here but do you really exist.......

    I'm not saying this is true, just as your last post was done without factual info(well, part of it was but you know what i mean) as is this one.
  • Originally posted by Susan B STAFF@Feb 18 2003, 07:16 AM

    As the great Mr. Hetfield says, "[b]Sad but truuuuuuue
    ". :P [/b]

    Hetfield? Metallica?

    ...you mean Satan's music?! :blink:

    LMAO
  • Satan's music? But they have heaps of songs about christian values. Like Creeping Death, Am I Evil,
    Lepper Messiah and The God That Faild. How can you say this is the music of Satan?
  • Personally, I believe that there is a supreme force in the universe which is reffered to as one or more God(s). Furthermore, I am willing to make the unpopular suggestion that this force has been and will continue to be interpreted in different ways by different people.

    I believe that this force is the same Judeo-Christian God that is loved and hated by so many human beings across the face of this earth.

    I also believe that this God has been interpreted as: the Muslim god, Native American spirits, Buddhist "Four Noble Truths" and "Eightfold Path", Hindu gods, the ethical teachings of Confucianism, and the driving force behind too many other belief systems to name.

    Please remember that I am not trying to preach to anyone. I am merely trying to state my beliefs.

    Hopefully we can all agree that the only way there can ever be any kind of peace or order in this world is if we practice, teach, and spread tolerance of all religions, cultures, races, sexual orientations, etc. Without toleration we will continue to live in a world of hate

    herbie
  • This is getting a bit better.
    Now we all know what the christians belive in, so would you STEVE, who is so talkative, please care to make a post on what YOU belive in.

    Do you belive that the earth is a sphere?
    Or that there have been people that accually been traveling to the so called "moon"?
    Do you belive that the people you refer to as your parents concieved you?
    Do you belive that PS games aren't a part of a vicious plan created by the Egypians to enslave a whole generation?
    Do you belive that the things you flush down your toilet accually go to some purifying plant before let out in the sea?

    Let us know (all you others are welcome to engage in proclaiming your beliefs too of course)
  • And so you base practically all your beliefs on hearsay and the genral public opinion (exept the one invoving turds, and I do trust that you made sure that there were accual drain pipes leading to this plant in qusetion).

    Let me ax you this (yes, the ax is there only to annoy you :D ),
    do you belive that the beliefs you have are more valid then the belief that there is a allmighty God father in the sky?
    Justify your answer.
  • To me, most definitely.

    Of course to others, that will depend on the individual.

    I would never tell anybody what to believe or what not to believe in terms of what can never be proven.

    Religion doesn

  • Just curious Steve, do you consider me as one of those "religious" people!? I am definitely a Christian, a Born Again Christian. Don't know how 'religious' I am, per s
  • Steve, you said that anyone will believe whatever they are indoctrinated into, right? Well, I am most assuredly a Christian, but before a year or so ago, I had never even been introduced to the concept of Christ. Even after I had been, I was quite resistant to the fact that there could be an almighty source in the universe. I was never "indoctrinated" into believing in Christ. I was merely told about Him, and left to my own descisions.


    Later all,
    Darkraider
  • [quote]Originally posted by Steve F STAFF@Mar 5 2003, 01:58 AM
    [b] Religion doesn

  • While Mr. Raider may have based some of his decision on what was shared with him by his parents, he never would have 'accepted Christ' if God had not prepared his heart to do so. That's just how He works.

    I myself was brought up in a family full of heathens. My father was a non-practicing Catholic, (well, he practiced alright, but nothing that the Catholic church would approve of! :o ), Mom has always been a luke-warm 'Baptist', and none of us kids were brought up to believe in anything.

    God brought some people into my life, since I didn't have the family to do it, to share about Himself with me.

    See, we are all products of our environment to the extent that we all react, so to speak, to what/whom we are surrounded with. If we've never been screwed over by a cheating lover, then we don't usually have the paranoia about it, if we've never had Christ shared with us, we cannot base any decision on what we do not know...... if we've never lived where it snows, we have no experience in how to drive in it....... zillions of little things around us daily shape the 'who' of who we are....... and that goes for God too. We just can't make any decision on Him if He has never been shared with us. That just makes sense.
    We can't say whether or not we like,... say Sushi, for example, if we've never tasted it.

    It's a nice combo deal, if you will. We all are surrounded by stuff all day long, and those things influence us whether we like it or not. It's the CHOICES we make that determine HOW these things will effect our lives in the long run.

    And, speaking of running, I must now, there is a job to get to! :D
  • Okay this is for everyone who harps on about the Bible and Jesus and that. If you read the accounts of all of Jesus's disciples they don't all agree. However if you take all of them and sort out what they have in common you start to get a better picture. Mary was not a Virgin, she was gang-raped by Roman soldiers and Joseph took pity on her and married her even though she was pregnant with a baby that wasn't hers. 2nd there was no census at the time of Jesus's birth (he was actually a real person that's a difinate) so Jesus wasn't born in Bethlehem but in Mary's home town of Nazareth. 3rd Mary would never have worn blue in her life. That sort of cloth (dyed cloth) was reserved for nobles and aristocrats only since they were the only ones with enough money to buy them. She most likely would have worn Brown clothes. I wont comment on the miracles since even the tv show I watched (I think it was Horizon about a year back) had answers to that. Oh and you know how Moses was supposed to have parted the Red Sea. In a way he did. It seems there is an extremely large sandbank that periodically builds up and for a very short time rises above the surface. At that time Moses knew that it would rise early so he took his people that way. It probably took everyone a few hours to get across since the turning tide would have destroyed the sandbank, washing away the pursuing roman soldiers in the process. Oh and don't even start on Noah and his ark but if you want to then just try me. And from all of this info you can probably gather that I watch a lot of tv and that it isnt all cartoons. Oh and I don't believe in god either. If there is a god then either they're thick as a brick sh!th0use wall or just don't care. Oh and as for god creating the world in 7 days well the language that that was translated form was very lax about their timekeeping so their word for day could also mean anything from year to eon. Oh and most of this was directed right at ya Speedie though I thought that everyone else could benifit from sharing in this also.
  • Well, I think I'm through draining STEVE for now. ;) Or maybe not!
    Racking down on Christians beacuse they can't provide proof of the existance of a God is as numb a'thinking as saying that people have no feelings.
    How can you prove such a thing as feelings, could you describe a feeling to someone that have yet not experienced it?
    Sure you could do some fancy tests and find out witch glands extract what and then simply inject the same stuff in an other person. But it would not be the same now would it!?

    Same things goes for some of the high level math (in fact it seems as if many mathematicians start to belive that there is a god after many years of studying).
    How can you prove that there is an imaginary plane to someone that isn't familiar to the way proof is provided in math?
    You can't exactly build them a model.

    I'm sorry STEVE but you really come on as quite ignorant in this matter as you refuse to look for proof yourself and turn to questioning the ones that have experienced something you havn't.

    And Forger:
    Don't belive what you see on TV ;)
    I have also heard of all those proof of miracles and disproof of other things, but since you're dealing with historical events there are mostly assumtions.

    However, who finds it strange that Christianity turns up shortly after the last Jew had been banned from the Roman empire?
  • I see a recurring theme throughout some of the posts and that is someone being religious. What is religion? It could be anything. You could even make tv your religion(*cough*Forger*cough*). Having religion doesn't mean a thing, i could have religion and still be going to hell. I have God, not religion.

    Steve, is there anyway that you can prove, without a shadow of a doubt that what you believe in is true? With God it's like this. Can you see air? No, i guess not so how do you know it's there? Because someone told you that it was right? So, basically you're putting your faith out there that there is air that we breathe. Yes, sometimes you can feel the air(and sometimes one can feel God's prescence) but that doesn't prove anything. Basically i put my faith in that God exists and that by following his will that i will go to heaven. I don't believe in God because i think i'll be any better off than i am now, i believe in him because I think it's the truth that he exists and that he longs for fellowship.

    I won't try and prove nor disprove anyone's ideals as i see that as a petty waste of everyone's time. In a place such as a set of forums i don't expect anyone to change their mind based on what i say and i don't expect anyone to listen to me but this is what i believe in and no matter what anyone says my faith remains untouched.

    Well, i hope that you all enjoy posting and have fun gaming.
  • Steve, you talk about Manne assuming that you never believed in God but it's true, you never believed in God, as you said, you were forced into a way of thinking, not believing. Only you can make a decision what to believe and what not to believe.

    You're also living a bit of a double standard as you want no one else to assume anything about you but then you say, and i quote:


    People who believe in God are unwilling to believe in anything else even if they see appropriate proof.


    Now, it may be just me but it seems that you're assuming everyone is the same and that they should all be herded into the same category. If you stopped and thought about it for a seond, no two people are exactly the same and many people who believe in God don't believe the same things that the next person does. What that statement should have said(since we like to use the word religion alot in this thread) is: Religious people are unwilling to believe in anything else other than what they believe in and that to them proof against their beliefs are heresy.

    Now we can sit here and go back and forth on this subject but it's rather pointless because we have already determined that everyone believes in what they want to believe in and that there is no way to prove nor disprove anyone's beliefs, not at least through a set of forums.

    Well, i hope that you all enjoy posting and have fun gaming. [/b]
  • Debates are not as much fun if you don
  • I wasn't saying this thread in general was pointless but rather to continue about it the way we have been. Nothing that conspired within this thread has been pointless but rather enlightening on how others feel and what their belief system is based on. But to try and continue on with this thread after coming to the conclusion that nothing will change is a bit pointless. This thread has been a very good thread but it may b near it's lifespan. Well, i hope that you all enjoy posting and have fun gaming.
  • Mad, you stated that we cannot see air so how can we know it is there?

    We can see air, the smog that floats over most cities. Just kidding, what I mean is that we can see air under a microscope. We can see its effects.
    ---------------------------------
    When I was younger and my Grandma was dying of cancer I prayed to 'God' that I could talk with her just one last time. That was after my Mom told me that she was getting worse and that any day could be her last.

    I never got that one last time.

    Why would a god who loves all his children so much rob one child of a last conversation with his Grandma that he wanted so badly?

    It was shortly after that I stopped believing in 'God'.
  • Okay, I decided to take it upon myself to pay God a little visit last weekend & tell him about this thread
    to get a straight answer for everyone. Well when I arived, junior answered the door & said his dad
    was out pulling faces at brazilians from the clouds & that he could be gone for hours, but I was welcome
    to wait for him to come back & have a few beers while I wait.

    Well, I sat down with Jesus, and we chatted while we drank our beer, well he did most of the chatting,
    he really loves his surfing, that guy. Not being into surfing myself, I just simled and occasionally nodded
    with a "Mmm" or a "Tell me about it".

    After a couple of beers, the atmosphere in place suddenly changed, it became heavier, thicker, I dunno,
    it's hard to explain, you had to have been there. Jesus saw the expression on my face and said "don't
    worry, thats just dad's aura, it means he's just a couple of K's away, should be here any second now".

    No sooner had he finished saying that, the door flung open on its own accord and an almost blinding
    light flooded in followed by a deep rumbling sound, which grew lowder as the light seemed to be
    shifting & dancing around the doorway. All of a sudden the walls around the door exploded, sending
    splintered wood in all directions. luckily, the place was so big that the door was far enough away from
    Jay (which he insisted I call him, it sounds better than Hay) and I, so that the flying debris didn't even get
    halfway towards us, but the '67 Mustang that caused the the explosion did. In fact it had made it all
    the way and ploughed sideways into the couches we had been sitting in (Jay had hauled me up by the
    shoulder and, following his lead, we dived behind the bar before that happened), then came to a
    screeching halt next to a bar fridge at the far end of the lounge.

    After a couple of seconds the passenger door opened and a huge arm came out, opend the fridge,
    pulled out a six-pack, dissapeared back into the darkness of the car and then there was a pause
    followed by a succession of the familliar noises of cans being opened.

    The first out of the car was a huge bloke with a large bushy black beard on the passenger side,
    upending the can as he stood up. "Damn I needed that" he bellowed, crushing the can like it was made
    of al' foil & throwing it over his shoulder. "Bloody hell Elohim", he continued, opening another can, "look
    what you've done to yer bloody lounge room, you're lucky ya don't have a missus, she'd go absolutely nuts".
    "Yeah", said a medium build, clean shaven man stepping out of the drivers side, "but you have to admit War, it was fun.
    "Heh heh, you got that right."
    "what about us", the voice came from within the car, "you gonna push your seat forward & let us out, or not?"

    Suddenly the car disappeared and, lined up along where the backseat used to be, three figures droped
    to the floor, spilling beer all over themselves. In unison, God, War & Jay burst into laughter. I, myself,
    found it very difficult to supress mine and I'm sure my face was going red with the effort. Then God saw
    me.

    "Ah Jesus", he said walking towards us, "I see you've found yourself a date for tonights party"
    "Har har dad, very funny. He's here on behalf of the Absolute Playstation forums, wants to get some things straight".
    after introducing myself, I got down to the burning question.
    "Well God, ther-"
    "Please, call me El"
    There was a snigger from War.
    "Shut up War, it is not a girls name. That would be Elle, with Two L's & Two E's. Moron. So where were we?"
    "Well theres this thread on religion El, but most of the posts in it are about whether or not you exist. care to shed some light?"
    "Sure, no worries. The truth is I don't exist. So apologize to my followers for me and tell them to stop praying. Not that it's keeping me awake all night & giving me a headache only large amounts of alcohol can cure, but only because I don't exist. Now that we have that sorted out, I have a party to prepare for. You staying for the party?
    "I've never been to a deities party before, existant or not. How many are coming?"
    "Hundreds, maybe thousands."
    "Do they exist?"
    "Dunno, you'll have to ask...hold on, just what are gettin' at?"
    "Oh, nothin' El, just curious of the crowd I'll be mingling with, that's all. Of course I'll be staying for the
    party, wouldn't miss it for the world."
    "Good to hear, Whenever you need a drink just grab it from the fridge next to you. Come on I'll
    introduce these fools."

    As he led me to the, suprisingly intact, lounge, something was puzzling me. I stoped, looked down
    beside me, and sure enough, there was a bar fridge. I opened it and grabed a beer.
    "Pretty cool 'eh." Came Jay's voice from my other side.
    "I could get used to this." I said, cracking open the can.

    "Glad to see you finaly made it over here." Said God, in a not unfriendly voice. "That Ten meter walk must've really taken it out of you."
    "This Massive chap here," he said, gesturing towards War with his beer can, "as you've probably guessed, is War."
    "G'day" I said extending my hand.
    He stared at it for a few seconds (which, I later found out, was because hardly anyone has ever willingly
    offered War a handshake).
    "Pleased to meet ya." He said, gently taking my hand (he only fractured My index & pinky, but Jesus
    fixed that right away).
    "And this sly lookin' bastard,"said God, turning my attention to an occupied couch, "is, you've probably heard of 'im. Are you familiar with....
  • Aww hell, you can't leave a guy hanging like that.....That's like a movie that ends with the killers arm raised about to attack and the victim with a gun raised......I will be expecting to read the rest of the story tomorrow though i guess i can make up the rest....
  • HAHAHAHHAAHAAAHAHAHAA!!!!!! OMG Knowze, you are such a nutbag!!!!!! :lol: That is just tooooooo funny!!!!!!!

    Mad, I'm sure it had to be Elvis that El was talking about! After all, he is the diety of Rock and Roll, is he not!? ;)

    Forger, I'd urge you to find your information from somewhere other than the telle, please. We all know how filtered the crap on television is, and that it's filtered by 'man', who all have their/our own opinions etc..... ya just never know the agendas of those who put that business on there! I don't know if I've angered or upset you at some point to make you want to aim that post directly at me, but whatever it was, (unless it was something within my Mod duties) then I apologize, I sure don't come here to offend anyone.

    Gid:

    QUOTE
    I
  • Originally posted by madhtr@Mar 7 2003, 04:19 PM
    [b]Aww hell, you can't leave a guy hanging like that.....That's like a movie that ends with the killers arm raised about to attack and the victim with a gun raised......I will be expecting to read the rest of the story tomorrow though i guess i can make up the rest....[/b]

    Well most of night was a bit of a haze Mad, but I rember meeting Death himself after the crowd piled
    in, I managed to refrain from talking to him about my own life in our brief conversation, but I'm sure he
    could see the subject trying to burn a hole through my lips. very polite bloke though (I think he was a bloke).

    El was right too, there were thousands of them. They flowed through the door like water, But
    walked in as human(oid). I spent about Fifteen minutes staring, facinated, at that door, before I
    started to feel woozy.

    I even met a few that put up a good conversation about ancient aviation (anti gravity, Jet powered) and
    (ancient) nuclear warfare. Overall, a very informative bunch.

    But no, I'm not going to finish the story, I think the individual imagination can do a much better job than I.


    Speedie,
    El, isn't short for Elvis. And that's not because I think the beetles are better :D . It's just because it is.
  • [quote]Originally posted by Susan B STAFF@Mar 7 2003, 07:50 AM
    [b]
    Gid:

    [quote]I
  • Naturally the 5 year old were a spawn of evil and did not deserve the help of god, Rex.

    I'd like to take some time now to enquire about the good harted Christians (I havn't seen any other religon represented so far, that is if you don't count Gidism. :lol: ) darker sides.
    Now, burning wiches and such nuisens have ended years ago but how is your view on, let's say homosexuals?

  • Originally posted by manneman@Mar 8 2003, 02:17 PM
    [b]Naturally the 5 year old were a spawn of evil and did not deserve the help of god, Rex. [/b]

    I cannot honestly believe that you posted that, I certainly hope your joking <_< .
  • Everyone has the freedom to live whatever lives they want to live, regardless of what anyone thinks or believes. Sure, homosexuality is a bad thing(throw in bad Gabe Knight joke....heh, heh) but it's a choice that they made so whatever floats their boat. I don't agree with it but i won't dislike someone just because of the way they feel....

    I see alot of people saying well why doesn't God help all his people if he loves them.....If you feel this way, have you ever actually been close to God? Have you tried to reach out to him in times that you don't need him? God doesn't say come to me when you want something in return and i'll grant your wish(he's not out of a Disney movie ya know....), no, he created people(not sorry if that offends anyone) so that he'd have someone to fellowship with, not just to be their to help out with everyone's problems that were caused by their own-doing. And i hear it already, "what about that little girl"......what about her? Things like that happen everyday and i can't tell you why the little girl would have to suffer through something like that(heck, many people have had to suffer through something like that) but you can't blame God for everything bad that happens in life. I hear, "well it's God's fault that people get hurt" and i hear, "man, things are going so great.....i sure must be doing something right". Basically i hear more people that don't believe in God actually give him credit for something(albeit it's usually only the bad and usually only because God didn't help them when they needed him but they were never there for him) than i do any Christians that i know.

    Love is a double-edged sword that is ingested and if you teeter off the path, it cuts deeper an deeper the further you stray. You blame the path for not following you, while in reality it's you who strayed from the path.

    "Ex" believer - "I asked God to do so and so but instead the total opposite happened and it ruined my life"
    Christian - "How is your relationship with God?"
    "Ex" believer - "Well, i pray for help all the time but i have gotten nothing from this so-called God of yours"
    Christian - "Have you ever asked what you could do for God?"
    "Ex" believer - "Why would i have to do something for an omnipotent, omniprescent being that supposedly needs nothing?"
    Christian - "Yes, God has everything he has ever wanted except for you(speaking to all), and it saddens him that you never sought his love out. He has so much he'd love to talk with you about."
    "Ex" believer - "If he knows what i'm going to say then why do i need to say anything at all?"
    Christian - "If you don't tell him then i guess what he knew you were going to say is nothing because you assumed he knew what you wanted to say, eventhough you never decided to actually tell him."


    Of course the above is totally ad-libbed but it could easily be a series of Q&As between two friends, or even two total strangers. What i was trying to get at is you can't expect everything without expecting to give anything.

    Well, i hope that you all enjoy posting and have fun gaming.


    *Disclaimer - For all of you who were offended by this post then good! If you were offended then maybe you should question your own morals and look into why what i say is offensive to you.
  • Rex: No it really wasn't a joke.
    God knows everybodys past, present and future.
    If a 5 year old girl get's killed then it is his will, and I'm sure he has good reasons to have her killed.

    mad: First off, your sexuality isn't your choice.
    I'm not going any deeper on that cus that's a whole different issue then the one this thread is supposed to handle.

    I don't really see were your post is suppose to offend me.
    The way I read it your god looks like he's an employer of "human sevices" that doesn't really tell you your tasks until you have already done them. You then get graded and if you did good you're allowed to not get fired from his firm.

    So am I supposed to feel anger just becuse I chose to work for someone else, maybe start a little buisness of my own.
    Now I don't know how all you Christians walking around with a smile on your face all day long feel.
    But I know that I feel good, and by that I mean that I don't feel like somethings missing in my life and that I don't fear tomorrow.

    I can't really get a grip on what it is that make people fall in love with jesus since there is no one forcing them any more.
    Could it be that they havn't got the power to make their life good on their own?

  • Maybe people need 'God' for someone to look up to, to blame things on and to generally make their life a little more full.

    What good reason is there for some of the things that happen to kids lately? None, none at all. No one is guilty until they have actually done something.

    Honestly, I don't need 'God' in my life. I am perfectly happy the way that it is.
  • Everyone has a god to kill for.
    Everyone has a reason to doubt god.
    Everyone doubts they could kill god.
    But everyone tries.

    Religion is like a butt ugly sofa that is so comfortable you could never throw it out. Fine as long it stays in your damn house and I don't have to hear anyone talk about it.

    Religion, politics, and sexuality are personal topics that shouldn't be discuss with opinions attached. We should be able to view the information on all those topics and be free to make our own decisions. That is true freedom. Being able to believe, have sex with and vote for whatever or whoever you want.
  • Originally posted by S2dio@Mar 11 2003, 02:53 PM
    Religion, politics, and sexuality are personal topics that shouldn't be discuss with opinions attached.

    Your decision is an opinion so if you think that opinions shouldn't be attached then i guess there's no reason thinking you have any choices.

    All these subjects deserve to be talked about, it's the only way anyone will know anything. If everyone was quiet and kept their mouth shut then this world would be a boring place with no one having opinions on anything.

    Basically Choices == Opinions

    Well, i hope that you all enjoy posting and have fun gaming.

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